Teach Soap

So I'm seeing a lot of soapers market their soaps as all natural despite using oxides for colorant.

Teach Soap (web page) says that oxides fall under "pigments" are are *not* natural. I believe Anne Marie explains this is because they are refined in a lab for purity and that kind of thing. Though I would think the raw material still comes from the Earth ... but I'm not clear how the color is created. Is it brought about from natural sources without chemical alteration or is synthetic pigment somehow added back in?

Moreover, aren't ALL or MOST of the natural ingredients we use refined to some degree for purity/cleanliness/etc? i.e. RBD palm, essential oils, refined shea, etc etc.

I'd love to open this up for some debate and discussion because I think it's an important topic. As someone who wishes to be as integrity-bound as possible in claiming my soap is made from natural ingredients (not synthetics basically), I'd like to understand perceptions AND reality around this topic more deeply. Even if there is no real "black and white" to this.

Karri

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I soap therefore I am.

No, oxides are not "natural", as most of us might define it.

But that brings up an interesting point: there IS NO legal definition of "natural" in either the US or Canada. That is why the ingredients must be listed, etc...

And if you consider refined shea to be natural...or the fact that you used a stick blender (not a hand carved wooden spoon to stir it)... and by the way - do most of us MAKE the paper that we use for labels? Or distill the ink from berries we grow in our backyards?

We all draw the line wherever we feel comfortable. Unfortunately, it is unfair that some people or companies draw it waaaay back there, while I stand on my own line up here...lol

like you said Karri - not black and white...never gonna be....

The word "natural" has lost its meaning. Anyone can call anything natural and no one bats an eye anymore. Oxides are made in a lab.

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Irena
Closed minds are like faulty parachutes; they refuse to open.

Thanks Kat and Irena for sharing your thoughts.

I agree that "natural" has lost its meaning to some extent (I'm a marketer and I totally 'get it'), but I strive to create natural products anyway because I (personally) believe in the value of doing so. I feel that our environment--and our bodies--are so heavily polluted that society on the whole is getting sicker and sicker. And while we can never know "what causes what," my intuition tells me that the number/combination of toxins in and around our bodies can't be supportive of good health. We may not be able to eliminate all the 'suspects,' nor should we necessarily try. But trying to respect our bodies more by simply being more aware of what we put on them and into them seems to be a positive thing.

That said, this is my opinion only and everyone views this topic differently so I do respect that, especially in the soaping world.

I still like the word "natural" and (should the time come) I'm wiling to demonstrate for/educate my customers that I am using the most natural products possible to give them the best soap experience possible. I think there is big value in creating all natural products (i.e. not using synthetically derived products) and that there is a big, big market out there for this.

Indeed, like you so eloquently put it Kat, it's too bad that some people draw their line sooooooo far back there ... and we're "over here."

But our differences are what make it all so interesting too! I was just wondering how those darned oxide pigments are created because I still think that say a clay, for example, seems more natural/inert than an oxide type pigment recreated in a lab ...

Always learning, learning, learning!

Karri

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I soap therefore I am.

I agree with all of you. That being said, I still feel that my soap, even with oxides and fragrance oils, is far superior to the mass produced bars that most people buy. I do keep unscented, uncolored goat's milk soap available should someone want a more "natural" bar. (I mean, dog hair is "natural", but who wants it in their soap, right?)

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Linda
I know the voices in my head aren't real, but they sure have some great ideas!

Ha!

Except dog hair isn't suspect of causing birth defects

Not being flippant but one of my sons actually was born with a birth defect (corrected by surgery and he's totally okay now, but it's still NOT a fun way to start life). So these things are particularly relevant to me. I have read that there is increasing evidence that endocrine disruptors like pthalates could be the cause of such birth defects, among other things.

I realize that there is an argument for toxicity being related to dose (amount), but that's come into question as the number of pollutants in our environment has increased so rapidly over the years there is concern about bioaccumulation in the body.

Again, just throwin' this out there. I'm not an expert, just a curious person who wants to better understand these things. But I'm realistic in that it's perhaps "too hot" and too complex a topic to come to any firm conclusions. Too many variables!

But I still want to know how oxide pigments are made!

Karri

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I soap therefore I am.

This is a "gray" topic Karri. But for you as a possible seller i feel some integrity should go into it as do you since you started topic. Like Irena said anything can be called "natural" but does that mean that we as a community should just go with it, no personally I think not, I think we should be "honest" about our products. "handmade" is just as endearing as natural. LJM I really feel like all the soaps I've made even the "failures" are WAY better than store soaps but most of mine still arent "all natural" and I wouldn't say they were though I love them and others do to, they love them even without the "natural" label. There are botanical and other truly "natural" colorants and eo's to make a natural bar if thats what you prefer or you can do multi-line with both "natural" and other bars that offer the neat FO's and colors that can't be achieved "naturally" Now the label might not be "natural" either but you could use recycled paper for it or recycled soap boxes etc for an earthy feel or something easy on nature. I feel there is a way to be honest have "natural bar" and then theres just going with fad of saying "natural" because no one will blink and the consumers, sadly I was one, are to ignorant to know better. Now whether or not "soap" can be considered "natural" at all, is where I stumble because I'm not sure if the NAOh is natural or created. Sorry for the long winded response but i am big believer in "honest" marketing and I've been swindled too many times when i just wasn't familar enough with the topic, let's face it most Americans don't know their soap facts so I say make it plain for the every day person. If we all do it hopefully the "false advertisers" will stop (though its doubtful)

Hey Karri - I googled "how oxide pigments are made" and got this:

Iron Oxides:
These colors are synthetically prepared. The different colors are usually a single iron oxide or a combination of iron oxides, and their hydrated forms.

Naturally occurring iron oxides are said to be unacceptable as coloring additives in foods, drugs and cosmetics because of the difficulty in removing impurities from them (for example lead, arsenic, and mercury).

The chemical composition of these colorants can very greatly depending on the method of manufacture, but is generally represented as FeO•xH2O, Fe2O3•xH2O or a combination of those chemical formulae.

Most iron oxides are made from copperas (ferrous sulfate, Fe2SO4•7H2O).

The most common forms are yellow which is hydrated (ochre), browns, yellows, reds and blacks.

Yellows are made by the precipitation (which in chemistry means the process of separating a substance from a solution as a solid) of ferrous oxide from a ferrous salt using an alkali and followed by oxidation. Their colors range from a light lemon to an orange depending on the conditions used during precipitation and oxidation.

Red Oxides are generally produced by calcinating yellow oxides. The color of the red oxide depend on the characteristics of the original yellow oxide used and the conditions of calcinations. Their colors range from light to dark red.

Black oxides are made by precipitating ferrous sulfate (Fe2SO4•7H2O) with NaOH and O2. This forms a mixture of ferrous and ferric oxides.

Browns are made by blending mixtures of red, yellow and black iron oxides or by precipitating an iron salt with an alkali.

Iron oxides are stable pigments. Their major use as a colorant is in cosmetics such as eye makeup, face powders and lipsticks.

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~bytheSEAsoap~ Mella bythesea, bythesea, bythebeautiful sea

海の皂

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I soap therefore I am.

I love the way the soaps look when theyre colored with oxides, or colorants - but I choose to use natural clays and herbs to color my soaps. Its just a preference and I too feel they should be natural if its labeled that way. I love the way the swirly soaps look too although I dont do any fancy swirls. I am more basic and love a simple bar of good soap. I suppose the more decorative and colorful the soap...the more it would probably sell but I never did it before ~ Ive been making soap for about 4 yrs now and enjoy my success on a smaller scale. Theres a customer base for every different kind of soap out there.I just recently got into making all vegetable based soaps...I was horrified using palm oil an now Ive grown to like it even though I prefer the lard soaps overall. Not everyone likes homemade soap- some still prefer the "Dove" and" Oli of Olay" because theyre comfortable with it. I do use fragrance oils in some of my soaps but I make sure they are phthalate free or I wont use them. I let them know which soaps have essential oils and visa versa. But even then it seems people dont care as long as it smells good.

As a newcomer to the industry of soap, my opinion may be considered 'less valid'.

However, as an artist of over 10 years working with clays, slips, oxide stains, and mixing glazes, my perspective of 'natural' may also differ from the average user. I have also exclusively used naturally occurring pigments in my encaustic paints.

'Natural' to me means that it is of the Earth, not a chemical production (eg. lab created dyes, plastics, and other chemically engineered items). Oxides are naturally occurring in nature. YES oxides go through a lab, but it is to ISOLATE the oxide and purify the pollutants from them. This would be like running muddy water through a filter to get drinkable water. They aren't created by chemical process in the lab! If you had the right tools and knowledge, you could isolate these same oxides in nature yourself, as the Chinese did with cobalt oxide for their china at least 1000 years ago. (Although you won't see me suggesting that we use cobalt oxide for topical use either, it's just an example. )

In conclusion, items found in nature are natural, literally. You can be a snob about it and thumb your nose at natural pigments like those others you have heard, but the distinction is ultimately yours to make - is it natural ENOUGH?


P.S. Those clays you are using for natural pigments? Yeah, they're colored like that because they contain naturally occurring oxides. ALL kaolin that isn't white has had at least one oxide added to it for color. Kaolin is naturally white. (Yeah, I did say that I've worked with clay for over 10 years, didn't I? ) I just thought you should know!!

Oxides USED to be mined, but due to risk of contamination by some not so nice compounds (carcinogens, toxins and other nasties) it is now illegal to sell mined oxides. That being said, they are now created in laboratories for purity and safety. I have no issue buying "natural" products with nice safe laboratory produced oxides =D

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~~Heather~~
Mad [soaping] Scientist

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Irena
Closed minds are like faulty parachutes; they refuse to open.

Ah, well, I did also fail to consider that any pigments used in soaps would be cosmetic grade as well. Oops!! *feeling sheepish*

Also thank you for the correction and re-education.