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Teach Soap • View topic - Castile woes and wonders (x-post)

Teach Soap

Soap Making Recipes, Tips and Tutorials
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:12 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:17 am 
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Gelled castille gets hard pretty fast. If I don't gel, it gives me more time before it needs to be cut. The strongest solution I use is 40%. Anything stronger and the lye precipitates out.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:37 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:48 am 
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I let both the lye solution and the oils cool down to about 110. Then the soap goes in the fridge or the freezer (depending on my notes).

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:24 am 
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"I made similar post at the SMF as well. If that's a problem please let me know."
No problem, but posting in section is sufficient.

"....Oh my. Initially I did the "extreme soaping" approach and mixed up a 1:1 lye ratio. Well, every time I'd turn my back on it the sol'n would start forming a film and re-crystallizing ... and I could NOT get the ley to RE-dissolve back into the solution. I dumped and re-mixed this like 3 times before I found some info from Lindy at SMF where she recommended a 40% (1.5:1) lye/water ratio. So I made another solution at this ratio and it behaved much better."
A 50% lye solution is not recommended for use until you are a soaping vet. It can be highly problematic and even dangerous. In fact, if you put this amount into the lye calculator, you will get a warning note that says "Lye Concentrations of 40% or more are for those experienced with DWCP soap making." I really don't think it is necessary to go that steep, and it is much safer not to. Regardless, waiting [to try this amount] until you have much more experience, as in years not months, is my suggestion. And then, I would begin by gradually decreasing the amount you typically use, getting use to that amount, then decreasing a bit more, until you finally get to the 50%.

"However, no matter what I did, there were just a few teeny little white specs that refused to dissolve. I can only assume this was harmless "residue" (trace minerals?) or actual lye. (I clean my containers very well.) So when I poured the lye solution into my OO I tried to ensure most/all of those 5-6 flecks stayed in the container. (They were REALLY tiny but it still concerned me.)
Anyone notice this with lye solutions before? My lye is from Home Hardware and labelled "100% pure lye." It's made me many a batch of wonderful soap. I've used other lye (flakes) but it too seemed to be tricky on the dissolving front, even at a "normal" lye/water ratio."
All of your lye should always dissolve. When you begin doing steep water discounts, you begin to experience more issues. This is one reason that steep discounts are not recommended for novice use. I am not trying to insult you, and I know that you have made many batches in the last few months, I am just pointing out inherit problems in high discounts. At any rate, this probably had more to do with the water discount than with residue. Usually, a "residue" will appear filmy, not as an undissolved spec. Obviously, you dont want undissolved specss of lye in your batch, so it is good that you kept them out.
I have seen other posts where people had black specs or such in their lye that wouldnt dissolve. These were determined to be additive particles. While I tend to think yours was just undissolved lye, I guess additive materials cant be ruled out completely. I dont think that the the few flecks you kept out of your batch will impact your soap at all, even if your sf was 0, leaving out some lye would just give you a small sf. So no worries there. Just exercise extreme caution in future batches, and increase your water if need be.


It must be working itself out though because my soaps have never been lye heavy or had lye pockets, that kind of thing. I'm VERY careful about measuring/emulsification/reaching trace/etc.
Remember that detecting a lye heavy batch is much easier than detecting a lye pocket, and a lye pocket can be any size. Even when we are extremely careful and have been making soap for many years, things happen. It is life and the mischievous soap fairies, so always inspect and test each batch, and when in doubt, error on the side of caution.

2) Next issue: how picky do you get about the temps? With a concentrated lye solution things get HOT. Yet if I let it cool down too much the lye doesn't want to stay dissolved ... or so it seems. I also read from Lindy to warm the OO which I did, maybe to about 120 or so. I think my lye sol'n was around the same by this point and then I mixed up my soap.
The larger issue here is what you said about the lye. Lye should always remain dissolved. So if you you are getting undissolved lye when it begins to cool, then you have not mixed it well enough or there is a different issue. While I generally soap warm, there have been times when I have soaped at rt. Even then, the lye is dissolved. So maybe you need to mix longer/better. But if you feel you do, then maybe its that your lye is not great quality, and you should try a different brand/vendor.
Anyway, as for temp. I just feel and make sure that my lye pot and my oil pot are close to each other. I did use a thermometer way back when, but I tossed it out pretty quickly. I feel that it is more important to soap with similar temps than to worry about reaching an exact temp. The higher the temp, the quicker the trace usually, and the cooler the temp, the more problematic trace will be (as in it is more difficult to tell when you actually reach trace, and easier to reach false trace). With time and experimentation you will find what temp works best for your recipe and your work style, and you will adapt a "usual" temp to work at. Then you will change that up to meet your needs when you make certain specialty batches or whatever. So take good notes and make test batches at various temps and then decide what works best for you.


3) And finally: what about gelling castile? My plain castile batch is gorgeous and white (and HARD) but I can see a faint (really faint) gell circle in the middle. UGH!! I did insulate (just a wooden lid tho). Do the vets here avoid gel or force it with castile? Really curious on this. I know it's an aesthetic thing and truly, this cirlce is FAINT but still ... irks me.
I always gel and SB prefers not to. So it is just a personal preference. With some soaps a lid would be sufficient. that is pretty much all I use. However, with others, you need a bit more. I sometimes sit my mold in a box (with the lid) and that ensures gel, and other times I use the lid, the box, and I put a blanket over the box. Again, it is experimentation and finding out what works bet with your recipe. Eventually you will know what works in what situation most of the time. There are always variables, so there is never complete assurance, but you can get pretty close.

Congratulations on your first batch of Castille, it looks great!

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:40 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:29 am 
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The flakes precipitating out are indicative of an unmixed solution. But the film is indicative of some type of residue in the pot. Water chemicals and soap residue can both cause this. The chemicals in tap water are why we recommend the use of distilled water. So if you are using distilled water, then just try rinsing more. If that doesnt do the trick, then I would look at the lye and consider changing sources, assuming the issue is too much to deal with.
In answer to your question, yes I would consider upping the water a tad, but that is just me. It is not necessary, but I feel that it is better to work in increments. Try using 33% for a while then 35% then 40% and so on (on a regular recipe, not castille). The reason people like steep water discounts is to hasten trace (pure oo can take a VERY long time to trace), and to hasten setting, so you can get soap from the mold faster and cut faster. But there can be issues with too steep of a discount, so trying the various levels of discount and getting used to how fast they move things will give you a solid working base of knowledge. :D
Given what you said about the lye in other batches, I think I would look for a different supplier.
As fro gelling, you will have to decide that on your own, as you say, with some more experimentation. Gelling does give different aesthetics than non-gelled soap, so only you can decide what you like. Maybe you will do end up preferring certain recipes gelled and others not. there is no right or wrong here, just what you desire. So have fun deciding!

ETA; And, ps., I didnt mean to imply that you were being cocky trying the steep discount. I totally got that you read to do it that way, and thought it would speed up the process. I only quoted the lye calculator to show you that it wasnt just me be cocky, and saying it was better to not try that high of a discount until you had been doing it a lot longer. I am/was just concerned for safety. I wish others would explain that they didnt begin with a real high discount, and that there are problems when you use such high ones. Besides, I really never use a 50% discount (have tried it, yes but dont use), and I saw that SB said the same thing, yet our castille still manages to get made.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:23 am 
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Yeah I really had not anticipated the lye being so tough to dissolve. Ya know, that container of lye from Home Hardware has been really good for me but as I get closer to the bottom it seems to be getting more "finicky" to work with. I wonder if just a teeny bit of moisture somehow got in there or if over time lye just takes on moisture after it's opened, no matter what you do. The lye from the soap supplier was actually HARDER to work with and get to fully dissolve. But no clue why. You'd think flakes would be easier to work with but in this case, not so much (only reason I don't like the crystals is that if you spill it goes everywhere like little marbles!).

Glad I didn't come off as cocky ;) When I get into something I REALLY get into it. LOL! So I do tend to want to challenge myself and get a tad ... eager.

Karri

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:01 pm 
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Hi Karri - I ran my castile recipe through soapcalc at 30% water after making a batch at 35% water. Basically both batches were identical. They gelled at the same rate and cured at the same rate. Castile will be a very hard bar, but if you can wait 4-6 months to use it, it will be worth it. there is a huge difference in a 4-6 wk old bar and a 4-6 month old bar! And if you get a chance, try making it with goat's milk in place of water - amazing! :D :D :D

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:13 pm 
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Good to know Linda. So you didn't discount the water much then and eventually those castiles still got way hard?

I guess I'd probably have to avoid the steep water discount if I did a milk version ... the lye sol'n gets soooooo hot. Milk soaps ARE nice though. Hmm ...

It's gonna be WAY tough for me to wait on these babies. They're so hard already (and so purty!). Maybe I should just tell myself it will be a lovely Christmas treat to myself and my family :)

Sigh. Patience was always my strong suit ... until I started making soap! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Karri

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:23 pm 
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heehee... Seriously, the longer you wait to use the castile the better it will be. I took one bar and used it once a week starting at 4 weeks. It was yucky until about 8 weeks, then it just kept getting better & better. 8)

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:33 pm 
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There is something appealing about the whole idea of letting a soap "age toward greatness."

Or maybe I'm making myself feel better about getting old. HA!

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:55 pm 
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I'll take Bastille any day; Castille not so much, no matter how old it is.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:00 pm 
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Well Bastille is next on my list to test (a few combinations spinning in my head at the moment) so it will be a bastille-castille showdown! (At Christmas ;))

I'm thinking maybe:

OO 80%
CO 10%
Castor 10%

@6-7% SF for winter. Maybe lavender!

Karri

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:57 pm 

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It's really funny that you mention your lye issues....I had the same thing happen to me the last two times! I've been using lye from The Chemistry Store (they are 20 minutes from my house here in SC) and never had an issue with them. Maybe I'm not mixing enough. It could very well be. I'll see what happens next time!


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