Teach Soap

I'm planning to make a milk and honey soap tonight (but only using a small amount of milk vs water to avoid any hassles!). What I want to know is how much cinnamon and clove EO is recommended when blending in soap? I believe cinnamon EO on its own is about 0.1 - 0.2 oz ppo but if I'd like to combine with clove, without creating something irritating, what would be safe? 0.1 oz ppo of each or reduce each EO to 0.5 oz ppo?

I get confused with EO blends in terms of proportions when creating blends and I want to be extra careful with these ones because I know they can be sensitizing....

Also: I notice a lot of websites say not to use certain EOs if pregnant or on children under 6. Does this warning apply with CP soap? I would think these warnings are more for using the EOs either in carrier oils for other products like lotions/massage oils/etc but curious...

Karri

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I soap therefore I am.

Karri, some people believe that since soap is not a leave on product that it doesnt mater what you use, however I strongly disagree with this. Yes, a lot of the soap is washed off, but some of it can be absorbed by the body, hence not using a lot of the photo-synthesizing EO's in them. and even so, it is not recommended that you venture into the sun for at least 45 minutes to an hour after washing with them. So yes, I believe that it matters, just not to the degree that a leave on product would matter. Still, you will absorb some of the oils. To know the percentages I would have to look back into my notes for my book and I am not at liberty to do that at the moment, but yes, I think it matters.

As for what to use in your soap....cinnamon is not a good one for using at all, a synthetic really would be better. But if you must, I would begin at .05 and go from there. Most EO's can be used at .8, with the stronger ones going to .4, but since this one is so sensitizing, I would never even go to .2 with it without testing it first. So my recommendation is to do a small test batch and try it out at .05, .1, and .2 and see what you and your body feel. Then remember that everyone has a different tolerance level, so either go under what you feel for you, or put a warning on it. Then make sure you mention to NOT get Near eyes, cuz these EO's will burn the eyes for certain!

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Remember, it's not just that we weather the storm, but how we dance in the rain.

Tammy

Thank you VERY much for this Tammy.

And I tend to agree with you that just because something washes off doesn't mean there isn't a trace left on your skin. It's part of the reason I strive to avoid synthetics in my soaps and see what I can come up with that's both natural AND safe. Thus the question re cinnamon and clove

Hmm ... so even 0.1 is too strong you think? I have to say that I bought a cinnamon/orange (maybe some clove too?) soap from a very popular handmade soap company here out west. They do make really great stuff but that cinnamon soap made my skin bright red anywhere I used it from the chest up. (Was totally find on my arms/legs/etc). There was cinnamon powder in it too though so not sure which part burned my skin: the powder or the essential oils. It's the only time a soap really bothered me like that and yet I still do love that soap. LOL. They just weren't judicious enough with their additives IMO.

Sigh. I so love cinnamon and clove. Maybe I'll do half my honey / beeswax soap just plain and half with a SMALL amount of EOs. Would you start with like 0.05 ppo for the TOTAL EOs then? i.e. 0.025 ppo for each of cinnamon and clove?

Maybe I need to let go of my food-soap obsession

Karri

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I soap therefore I am.

Yes Karrie that is where I would begin my testing. You may be fine with more, but I always begin testing low and add more, rather than the other way around.
Also, I sincerely doubt that any major company used essential oil of cassia or clove. They probably used a synthetic, or mostly synthetic, then added the powder so they could say there was "real" stuff in there.

You must remember/realize that all synthetics are not bad, and not all naturals are all good in all situations or at all amounts!

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Remember, it's not just that we weather the storm, but how we dance in the rain.

Tammy

_________________
I soap therefore I am.

LOL. Yes, again, I totally agree that "natural" isn't always synonymous with "safe" or even "desirable." Not bathing for days or weeks on end is pretty "natural" but generally most people prefer the alternative

Hey, there's a good tag line in the making for a soap biz. HA!

Thanks for the info re the EO proportions. Those are definitely higher than what I've seen recommended (i.e. BB's fragrance calc says 0.1 / pound of soap to start out and goes up slightly from there).

Love this forum! So much wisdom to be had!

Thanks again both of you.

And uh ... in the end I lost my nerve for tonight's batch and did 3lbs with just oat powder and 3lbs with patchouli / lime. It was my first honey/beeswax soap and I didn't want to take any unecessary chances. But so far I actually love the way beeswax and honey (with a little milk) behave in soap so I might do this one again and use a little cinnamon and clove ... sparingly

Karri

_________________
I soap therefore I am.

Good luck with your spice soap adventures. A cinnamon soap was one of the first I made. This was back in the day when I only made soap for myself (and friends and family members who whined until I gave them some!) A friend had given me a bar of cinnamon just about the time I started making it, so I was bound and determined to learn how to make it.

I'm like you - I love the cinnamon/clove soaps too! I live in NE Colorado, and there's nothing like using spice soap on a cold night.

Anita

.4 ppo is the highest recommended amount for pervasive EO's, and with using two of them at once I think you are asking for problems if you go above would not go above this amount total. As I said before, I would TEST various amounts and see what you feel after you try it on yourself, your children etc. What you do for yourself is one thing, what you sell is quite another. I may begin at .1 ppo of oils, but I would be testing all amounts before I decided. You cannot go by what someone else says and they tell an unsatisfied customer that "Tammy said it was what she used so I thought it would be okay".

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Remember, it's not just that we weather the storm, but how we dance in the rain.

Tammy

_________________
I soap therefore I am.

Funny I haven't been here in a while but returned to do some research about cinnamon soap and what is being discussed...cinnamon soap! I had a lady ask me if I made cinnamon soap. I vaguely remember some warning about cinnamon so thought I should do a bit of research before I add cinnamon EO to a soap. I found a recipe at Snowdrift farm for a 5 spice soap that contains 2/3 oz clove EO and 1/3 oz cinnamon leaf EO in a 9 lbs batch. (It also had several other EO's too). Does that seem like WAY too much EO? I think I might stick with the cinnamon sugar FO and tell her I don't want to make her burn and turn red!

If my calculations are correct, a 9lb batch is about 100oz of oil which means the cinnamon/clove combo is used at a full 1% strength ... based on the convo here and other places I've read (check out BB's fragrance calculator) this would be WAY WAY too much... ???

Maybe a couple other veteran soapers could make a recommendation here or add their thoughts though.

Karri

ps: heading over to the other section to post how my honey soaps turned out

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I soap therefore I am.

The IFRA standard lists the maximum eugenol content at 0.5%. The MSDS for cinnamon leaf eo from New Directions (the one I happen to have on hand) lists the eugenol content at 70-90%. So without doing the math, 0.6% would be reasonable, 1% is too much.

Hmmm. If it were me, I would let the lady know your concerns about using cinnamon EO and ask if using an FO would be OK with her.

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Linda
I know the voices in my head aren't real, but they sure have some great ideas!

Messed up some math - nevermind!

Anita