Teach Soap

I know this topic has been discussed a lot and I just want to share some recent observations.
So I use SoapQueen's cupcake soap recipe to make a lot of cupcake soap, same exact recipe, didn't change a bit.

Last fall I observed the cupcake soap I made, some batches got ash and some didn't. Made them the same temp, no insulation, but different FO and color. Darker color ones get ash and lighter color ones don't.

Last month I want to do a more controlled experiment on to proof if color effects ash. Made a batch, divided into 2 halves, one colored with copper mica and red oxide to medium shade (pretty dark), and the other just light green mica. Again, same temp and no insulation, both using silicone molds but different FO. Next day, copper red ones ended up perfectly fine, no ash at all, but the light green started having white dust all over the top. Popped them all out the molds and set them up to cure. 3 more days later, copper red ones are still fine but the light green ones are now covered with a layer of white ash and migrated to the sides.

Experiment #3, made a batch, colored it light green mica again, same FO, half of them made into cupcake, the other half made into plain oval shape bar soap. Both molds are silicone. Next day, cupcake ones are covered with ash on the top, but the ones in individual oval silicone molds just have tiny little white dust here and there.

Conclusion #1, color probably has nothing to do with ash.
Conclusion #2, recipe probably has nothing to do with ash.
Conclusion #3, mold material probably has nothing to do with ash.

Question #1, does FO have anything to do with ash?
Question #2, do temperature and humidity of the environment have anything to do with ash?
Question #3, does shape of the mold (or size) have anything to do with ash?

Supersoaper, since you claimed to be more scientific in soap making, can you please shine a bright light at this issue?!

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Shieh Design Studio
https://www.facebook.com/ShiehDesignStudio
http://soapandrestless.blogspot.com

Firstly let me say I applaud your note-taking and methodology you used to reach your hypotheses.

I agree with all of your conclusions.

The first thing to understand is that scientific methods rarely provide hard and fast results. But they do allow us to narrow down the possibilities and ask more intelligent questions.

Based on your testing and conclusions we don't have enough information to answer all 3 of your questions. However, I think we can safely say that answer to Question #1 is "No". Because there isn't any supporting evidence to suggest this to be true. Furthermore, we cannot say it is yes without testing more FO's.

I like Question #2. To me, this makes the most sense as it's the most likely culprit. It's also the environmental factor we can least likely control during the soapmaing process. We can't determine whether this is a "Yes" or a "No" unless we can accurately control the soap temperatures throughout the entire process from mixing temp, gel temp (if it gels), and the coefficient of heat loss (how quickly it cools down). It's possible that the amount of time it cools down, is a contributing factor to the ash. Or more specifically, how quickly is looses it's heat. If that can be controlled, that would be a significant step in the right direction. Establishing a control group....say making 3 or 4 batches of soap exactly the same, temperature, and monitoring how rapidly they lost heat would tell us a lot.

There are many "items" that need controlling to do this. If you use a stick blender, was the stick warm one time after having been washed and cold the other time? Were the molds the exact same temperature when you poured? Were the oils from the same "lot number"?

And here we are asking more questions.

Question 3 leads us back to Question 2. Smaller molds are going to allow for thermal disorption (heat loss) much more rapidly.

I'm liking Question 2 a lot right now.

I hate to cut this short but I'm short on time as we're having dinner with friends tonight. When we return, I'll look into it more. But right now I like the temperature and enviromental factors around Question 2.

Question 1 also leads us to Question 2 in that some notes may heat up more than others. Seriously, I'm going to look more into this but right now I have to clean up so we can be at dinner on time. I'm very punctual. You're on the right tract with this and I like it.

_________________
Shieh Design Studio
https://www.facebook.com/ShiehDesignStudio
http://soapandrestless.blogspot.com

Just blame it on the soap gremlins! The only time I had ash was when I used lavender EO.

_________________
Irena
Closed minds are like faulty parachutes; they refuse to open.

_________________
Shieh Design Studio
https://www.facebook.com/ShiehDesignStudio
http://soapandrestless.blogspot.com

Maybe it's the temp and humidity factor.

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Irena
Closed minds are like faulty parachutes; they refuse to open.

I don't have an answer for the green vs copper.

And again, science often leads to more questions instead of answers.

What we have to understand is that it may not be a single source that's causing the ash....but rather a combination of things. To single out the green vs copper theory, we would have to make several more batches exactly the same way (same temp of everything including equipment). If we make 5 batches and the green batch gets ashe every time, then we have a good supposition that green dye (mica or whatever colorant) you use is causing the problem.

This is a process of what scientists call EOV (elimination of variables) to find the culprit. Perhaps a thermal disorption rate of 0.0001 btu / minute combined with greed dye causes ash. But a rate of 0.0008 / minute combined with green dye doesn't cause ash.....but will if copper dye is used. The more factors you can eliminate, the closer to the answer you get.

For Question #4 does charcoal and other things cause ash. Again, adding more variables further complicates finding answers. Maybe a thermal disorption rate of 0.0001 combined with green causes ash, but not when you put 0.02% charcoal into the pot.

Regarding the milk batches using "Relaxing" months ago. Yes, it could be referred back to temperature, but the relative humidity in your house could have been 58% and now it's 71%.

One thing that would be good to know before going further (sometimes you need to take a step backwards); Does certain FO's that accelerate trace, raise the temperature of the mix (all other variables being equal)? Do they allow for the same thermal loss? When you placed your batch on the counter, to get the spatula in your hand.....was the counter the same temperature as before?

You can see where I'm going with this. You end up asking more questions.

Additionally, are you using distilled water, tap water, filtered water, etc.? If you're using distilled water, by which method was it distilled? That could be a factor.

I fear there are too many variables to try to isolate without having a controlled environment. Also, and again, it may be such a combination of variables, that it isn't possible to isolate it to a single one.

Based on my review of what you've provided (and without writing an entire paper on results) I suspect that temperature, thermal loss, colorants and fragrances are all factors. Things that I don't believe are factors (and based only upon your results) oils, fats, butters, and the temperature at which they are heated to before cooling.

Another question Cat please..... Did you allow the lye water to become completely clear before adding it to your oils?

And I apologize for the lengthy answer but it's not a "yes" or "no" question.

I rarely get ash and superfat at 6 or 7 percent. Don't know why I mentioned that! heh heh. On the occasion I have had ash I attribute it to the soap not being covered as closely as possible right after the pour. It might just be superstition but when I cover my soap, and the cover doesn't have to touch the soap and do not peak until the following day, well no ash. Same batch and not properly covered and a bit of coolness seeps in gets ash. So I don't know what to tell you Cat!

spellinz edit

_________________
Shieh Design Studio
https://www.facebook.com/ShiehDesignStudio
http://soapandrestless.blogspot.com

You think you're getting a headache. I'm getting writers cramp. I don't measure the relative humidity in my house every day but know in the winter it's usually around 70 to 75%.

I'm not trying to make you do more work by asking questions. Learning the cause of something like this is not an easy undertaking....and requires a lot of work and repetition. It's nearly impossible to isolate the culprit based on the info you provided.

I'd love to be able to tell you that I know the exact cause. But I don't think enough data has been collected to make any sort of determination.

If I were got make a WAG (wild @ssed guess) I would say it's a combination of variables, not a single factor, and temperature is a definite factor. Isolating or determining the other factors would take a lot more work.

I almost pulled out MY hair, just reading this Cat, are you REAL sure that you just can't go with soap gremlins?
Seriously I like to know the why a lot too, but I think that there are too many variables to know a why, or else it would already be in all of the soaping books. "You get ash when you do xyz, and you don't when you do rpl". maybe I am wrong, but I missed it, but I haven't seen any definitive reason. So maybe if you and Superman SuperSoaper work this out you could make some bucks selling the secret!
Good luck and don't pull out too much hair!

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Remember, it's not just that we weather the storm, but how we dance in the rain.

Tammy

_________________
Shieh Design Studio
https://www.facebook.com/ShiehDesignStudio
http://soapandrestless.blogspot.com

This has been an unanswered question for decades....

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Irena
Closed minds are like faulty parachutes; they refuse to open.

My soap almost always has ash on top unless it's covered with plastic wrap. That's why I haven't bothered trying to make pretty little peaks or swirls on my soap...

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Linda
I know the voices in my head aren't real, but they sure have some great ideas!

I think we're barking up the wrong tree.....only looking for the single reason ash is caused. I believe it's a combination of things. Cat is headed in the right direction with her note-taking and observations. Sometimes I get it.....sometimes not. One of my formulas that uses a lot of palm oil almost always gets ash....then then there are times it doesn't. Again, I believe it's a combination of things.