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Teach Soap • View topic - Toiletries browning due to vanilla, HELP!!!! :)

Teach Soap

Soap Making Recipes, Tips and Tutorials
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:15 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:06 am
Posts: 135
Hello everyone!! I'm having a bit of trouble....ALOT, actually. I've made 3 batches of strawberry shortcake bubble bars, both fo's from BB, the cream cheese frosting and strawberry. The first batch, these I used gel food coloring...it was hard to get it through the dough, but once I did, they colored just fine! No browning whatsoever...so I'm confused. Why? The second 2 batches DID turn brown, and I used the BB laBomb colorants...SAME EXACT RECIPE, different colorants...I'm STUMPED!!!! Why would the food coloring not discolor, but the BB's did? I'm gonna order some titanium dioxide, but that won't prevent it from turning the strawberry color brown....lol, I'm rambling. I have orders and could be flipping my hard work into $, but this problem is preventing that....advice, please!! Thank you all so much!! :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:33 pm 
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I would really, really not recommend taking orders until you have a really firm grasp of both the basics of toiletry and cosmetic making and selling (safe manufacturing procedures, labeling rules & regulations, insurance, etc.) and the specifics of the products you wish to make and sell (what do each of your ingredients bring to the table, the shelf lives of your ingredients and products, how your ingredients interact with each other, how well they stand up to wear and tear, anything people might need to know for safety, etc.). Your questions here indicate you don't really have a strong knowledge base to work from, that you're still learning as you go. And that's fine! Everyone has to start somewhere, and we've all been in the "learn as you go" stage - probably we're all still learning as we go, every day. But you shouldn't be selling until you're confident in your knowledge base so you can be confident in your products.

As to your actual question, I believe there are vanilla stabilizers available for toiletries, but I'm not sure how well they work.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:37 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:52 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:06 am
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I have no intention of selling my stuff until I know everything, I apologize if I gave that impression. What I should have asked, is, will titanium dioxide help my situation? I read up on vanilla stabilizers on the BB site, and it clearly states that it is not meant for any other toiletries other than soap, which I do not make yet. My other recipes, bath bombs and bubble bars, were made straight from Soap Queen with a little tweaking. For instance, my ocean themed bubble bar came out beautifully, made with the ingredients from Soap Queen, but I tweaked the coloring to make it shimmer and added a very small amount of edible luster. I haven't set up shop yet, and I realize I'm not even close...but by no means will I be discouraged :) I'm just trying to ask questions so I CAN learn more, and make my products safe. I get told to keep reading, and I DO, every spare minute I have is spent on this, but sometimes I get overwhelmed, and so far when that happens and I ask a question, I'm just getting told not to sell yet. I was under the impression that that's what this forum was for, to ask question, in order to learn. Thank you both!! :?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:58 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:06 am
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P.S. My "orders" are from friends that are being supportive, like I said, I haven't set up shop yet, because I know I'm not there yet. I'm a perfectionist, and most definitely wouldn't put anything out there that could potentially harm someone. I just get overwhelmed...I HATE failing. Thank you both again, for bringing me back down to earth. I just don't want to throw $ away on something, like a stabilizer or titanium dioxide, if it won't be of use. I'm sure you both understand. :)


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:28 pm 
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No, don't get discouraged!!!!! I know what you mean by being overwhelmed;I was too when I first started. Just hang in there, you'll figure it out! :) Don't be afraid of mistakes. You can gain a lot of savvy from messing up; namely, don't mess up again! :lol:

I understand Paspenka and soapbuddy's point. Like you said, you are a perfectionist (that makes two of us :roll: ), so if something went wrong with something you sold, you might end up even more overwhelmed, which I don't think you want. That is all they meant. But, as you said, you aren't intending to sell right now, so no worries. :D

I would think it would be fine to give some samples of your creations to friends (as long as they don't have allergies or whatever). I don't sell my soaps, as I don't feel like I have mastered techniques enough to do so, but I give them to family and friends. One friend actually did place an order and paid me to make her 6 soaps, I think it was. It's really great when someone wants you to make your soap for them, and you realize that other people really do think your bath creations are neat!!! :)

On to your questions. If Bramble Berry says that their stabilizer only works in soap, there is no guarantee that it will work in your bubble bars. I suppose you could still try it, it depends on if you want to spend the money. As for titanium dioxide, it will not mask the brown color; it will cause a lighter, opaque brown. Your other option would be to try a fragrance oil that does not contain vanilla. Or, you could just make bubble bars intentionally colored brown, but I don't know if that's what you want...

I don't know much about food coloring, so I googled on Americolor gel food colorants to see what I could find out. (If there is a question, I will investigate it, lol ) I couldn't find for sure whether or not Americolor puts vanilla color stabilizer in their food colorants. Based on what you observed in your bubble bars, though, it could very well be the case. If you want to experiment, you could make another batch of your bubble bars (same recipe you have been using) with the Americolor food coloring. If your bubble bars still do not discolor, then that probably means it's something in the food coloring preventing them from doing so.

On that subject, food coloring is not the best for soap and bath products making. You can use it, but it's not the best quality and can eventually fade. Here is a little about the various bath product colorants.

There are two types of colorants: pigments and dyes. Dyes are usually in liquid format. They color by staining the actual molecules that they are mixed with. For these reasons, they are usually easier to use and incorporate into your products than pigments, but they can be more unstable (they can fade and bleed). Pigments are often in powder format. They do not actually stain the molecules. Instead, they just break down and disperse throughout the mixture, but do not absorb into the individual molecules. For these reasons, they are harder to use and incorporate into your products, but they are much more stable (do not fade or bleed). Both pigments and dyes can be either natural or synthetic, depending on where they are sourced (and on what your definition of "natural" is). Here are some of the various types of pigments and dyes.

Dyes
Lab Colors - These are dyes carried by Bramble Berry specially formulated to be used in soaps and other bath products. They are better quality than food coloring. They are the easiest of colorants to use and very concentrated; just pour/drop your desired amount into your bath product, they incorporate very well. They are water-based. As their name suggests, they are made in a lab/factory, and therefore are synthetic and not natural. Because they are manufactured in this way, there is a huge variety and selection of every kind of color you can imagine, another pro in their favor. But because they are dyes, they can fade with time and sun exposure. They will also "bleed", meaning they migrate throughout your soap as it sits. This is no problem if your bar is all one color, but if you have mixed colors, say red and white layers, you will end up with red and pink layers. This effect can be used creatively, though, such as if you want to achieve an ombre look. You can get just about any color with Lab Colors, including bright and neon colors.

Food coloring - Food coloring is less than desirable for use in bath products. They have basically the same properties as Lab Colors, only are a lower quality and will probably fade sooner. Still, it is possible to use them.

LaBombe colorants - These dyes are specially formulated for use in bath bombes. They are oil-based instead of water-based, so that they won't set off the bath bombes' fizzing reaction early. Other than this, they are pretty much identical to Lab Colors in every other aspect.

Natural dyes - These would be mostly plant-based dyes, obtained by steeping plant parts such as seeds, roots, or flowers in oils or hot water to extract the natural color from them. An example would be annatto seeds, from which you can obtain a yellow color or orange color, depending on how long you steep the seeds. Plant-based dyes have all the characteristics of other dyes, (easy to use, incorporate well, can bleed and fade) except that they are natural and there is much less variety of color.

Pigments
Oxides and ultramarines - Oxides and ultramarines are mineral-type pigments. They used to be mined from the earth, but are now manufactured in labs due to the presence of toxins in the mined sources. Whether or not they are considered natural depends on the individual's definition of "natural". Oxides and ultramarines are made identical to the natural sources (without the toxins, of course), which is why they are sometimes considered natural. However, they are manufactured in labs, and some have artificial colorants added to them to enhance their color, which is why they are sometimes considered unnatural. Whatever the case, oxides and ultramarines are stable in bath products, so they do not bleed or fade. They are more difficult to incorporate, however. It is sometimes helpful to mix them with a little water, oil, or glycerin before adding them to your soap. They mix in easier this way. The more natural oxides and ultramarines generally come in earthy tones and shades, while the ones enhanced with artificial colorants can be brighter. There are much fewer color options with these, though still a good variety. Oxides tend to mix easier with oil, while ultramarines incorporate better into water.

Micas - Micas are a very unique colorant, composed of double-sided mineral plates, each plate being almost two different shades of color, one on each side. Because of this structure, mica reflects light, causing a beautiful shimmer and shine to your soaps. Micas are manufactured in labs and many are colored with artificial colorants, so most are not very natural. Some may be considered natural, such as those coated with oxides or ultramarines. Again, it all depends on your definition of natural. Micas are more difficult to use than dyes, but easier than oxides and ultramarines. Micas, too, will incorporate easier if mixed with a little water, oil, or glycerin first. They are stable and will not bleed or fade. There is less variety of micas than Lab Colors.

Natural pigments - Like natural dyes, and unlike some oxides and ultramarines, these are truly natural. Other than that there is less variety, natural pigments have the same properties as other pigments. Activated charcoal, kelp powder, and orange or lemon powder are examples.

Other colorants
Color blocks - Color blocks for soap are blocks of melt and pour soap that have already been colored with either dyes or pigments. Especially for pigments, they make colorant incorporation much easier. They are usually concentrated. Depending on whether they are colored with dyes or pigments, they can be stable or unstable, natural or unnatural, bleeding or non-bleeding. There is a good variety, due to the fact that any color can be made into a color block. One disadvantage is that you may have to add a lot of the color block to achieve your desired color.

Clays - Clays can be considered natural colorants though not always as some are colored with oxides and ultramarines. Clays come in very earthy tones. They are stable in bath products, non-bleeding, and non-fading. There is less variety, and like other pigments, they are more difficult to use. However, the use of clays goes beyond just their color contributions. They are often used in face soaps for oily or acne-prone skin as they naturally absorb oils. They have more of a therapeutic use than all other colorants.

Non-bleeding colorants - These are liquid colorants, mixtures of pigments with, usually, glycerin. Since they are pre-mixed with glycerin, they have the ease of use of Lab Colors, but are non-fading/bleeding.

Titanium dioxide - This is a very helpful white oxide to have on hand. It is used to turn any clear soap to opaque white, or slightly opaque, and to make dark or vibrant colors lighter or pastel. It will not turn a colored soap white; it will only make the color lighter.

Vanilla color stabilizer - This is used in soaps in accordance with fragrance oils containing vanillin that are likely to discolor the soap brown. The vanilla color stabilizer keeps the soap white or cream-colored.

I hope this does not overwhelm you even more ( :? ) , but clears up some of your questions ( :) )!! The one thing I am not sure about is the solubility of pigments. I have heard that oxides are more soluble in oil, and ultramarines are more soluble in water, but then I have also read that technically neither one is soluble in anything, because they do not actually absorb into the molecules, but just remain mixed throughout the solution. Anyone know more about this?

Also, if anyone sees any mistakes in the information I gave above, please correct me. A lot of this came off the top of my head, (though I did check some things on Bramble Berry's colorant pages), so it's likely I said something wrong. I don't want to give misinformation!

Keep at it missjslick! :)

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Last edited by StokedTopHat on Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:46 pm 
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[/quote]I agree. Food coloring is not meant for B&B products. If the FDA catches you, they would consider any product made with food coloring misbranded with possible steep fines.
Please wait to sell til you know exactly which ingredients are B&B safe and how they fare over time.[/quote]

So, soapbuddy, is food coloring not allowed by the FDA at all in homemade bath products (if you sell them)? I can see how they would make that rule, as it is, after all food coloring. :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:18 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:06 am
Posts: 135
Thank you so much!!!! I also did some research while waiting for an answer lol (fingers and toes crossed!) before I placed yet another order. It seems that food coloring IS approved, some excluded (the dreaded Red 3)....I wouldn't want to use crappy colorants ANYWAY, as I do plan on growing this small little fledgling business of mine...so I was just confused :oops: Now I at least have a better understanding! It sounds like the titanium dioxide should stay in my cart, along with another few things, they'll eventually get used for something....I really appreciate your info and expertise!!! :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:30 pm 
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Closed minds are like faulty parachutes; they refuse to open.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:41 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:07 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:32 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:06 am
Posts: 135
I'm gonna take your word on that, Soapbuddy.....as I said, I want to make the best stuff, and I just started this around 3 months ago...I just get so frustrated when I can't get something right!! It's also confusing, that I made a "push pop" bath bomb with a little slsa, and cream of tartar, and it didn't discolor AT ALL!!!! My friends cleaned me out, 8 of them, leaving me only one to test on myself....obviously, I used vanilla for THAT one, and the LaBomb coral and cantaloupe colorants...I'm so confused....I know my questions may get annoying to those of you that are way more knowledgeable than I am, and I'm sorry...but I honestly just want to learn, and make the best products possible. Thanks for your patience :oops:


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:50 pm 
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BrambleBerry has a good book that I would suggest. http://www.brambleberry.com/Soap-And-Co ... P3663.aspx
You can also read more about rules and regs on the FDA web site. http://www.fda.gov/Cosmetics/GuidanceRe ... 074201.htm

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Closed minds are like faulty parachutes; they refuse to open.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:00 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:41 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:06 am
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So...today I received my D&C Red 33 and my F,D&C 4....I want to mix my own colors, as it's becoming a pain in the dupa, lol, to get the exact colors I want...I really like the labombs, but I'm finding I have to use ALOT to get the desired color for my bombs and especially my really big bubble bar slices. I already had Blue 1 and Yellow 5 from Nature's Garden, and I LOVE THEM, which is what prompted me to get the other 2 reds...here's my question..the blue and yellow came in liquid form, yet the reds (which I KNOW have to be super concentrated considering the price) are in powder form...what should I disperse them in and how much should I use? I have a half oz of each...@StokedTopHat, you seemed to know alot about colorants, do you have any knowledge about these? Any info is greatly appreciated, of course!!! Btw...These are from The Personal Formulator...I don't know if that makes a difference, but I'll tell ya, I REALLY don't want to do it wrong and waste these :oops: as I don't think I'll be able to get them again for awhile! Thanks guys!!!! :)


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